Favorite questions

[magid]

I've been thinking about favors recently (the social interaction kind, not the party loot), the kind of favors that involve one party spending money on behalf of the other. If A buys something for B, should B repay A? Well, it depends on the circumstances, for me, anyway. If A offers to get items for B at a store, I'd expect B to repay A (er, unless they tend to trade stuff like this back and forth, and assume it works out in the end). If A buys stuff for B because A knows it's something B will love, then I don't expect B to repay A; it's more of a gift situation. And in a similar way, I also tend to assume that if A does [something that involves money somehow] for B, it also depends on who initiated A doing the whatever it is.
(This was making so much more sense as I lay in bed thinking just before going to sleep. Really, it was. Trust me.)

Er. OK, in question form, then.

When you do a favor for X, do you expect to be reimbursed?
A. Yes, if X asked for the outlay.
B. Yes, if large sums are involved (for whatever value of large). (Does it matter if the the people involved have radically different ideas of large?)
C. No, that's not how favors work.
D. Other. (Explain.)
E. Ticky box.

(No, not an official poll; I'm much more interested in people's thoughts about it than a bare letter answer. Plus I'm lazy, and can't be bothered to check the FAQ about how to make a poll.)

Comments

[ruthling.livejournal.com]

I like to try to clear that sort of thing up beforehand if it's not an ongoing situation. I hate being expected to pay for something I thought was a present and I don't like being out money for what I thought was a trade. It doesn't happen often, but it can be the sort of thing that breaks up friendships. It's usually easier to ask or mention it at the outset, than later.

I'm recall a wedding I went to where the groom made us reservations at the far-way locale and acted like the bridal party was picking everything up, only to basically hand us a bill of like $900 once we got home. That was annoying.

[magid.livejournal.com]

That makes sense, to have things clear from the outset. And I can't imagine someone like that groom thinking it's ok not to check with people about their preferred accommodations if they're footing the bill.

I've been getting (will probably not renew, but anyway) two subscriptions to a particular theater, with the idea that I'll bring someone, have someone to talk about the play with. I don't expect money; I don't even know how much the individual tickets are (this theater has different prices for different shows and different nights). I hadn't thought to bring up money, since I know I'm not expecting any, yet many people have offered to reimburse me after the fact; I'm always surprised by it, too. If it's a situation where I have an extra ticket for $x, I say that up front; someone may not want the ticket if it costs that much, for instance.

[curly-chick.livejournal.com]

Oh, it is so situation dependant...

If X asks you to pick up something because you are in the area or work nearby etc., then I would expect to be repaid.

If X is ill and asks for chicken soup, I would not expect to be repaid. Its more of a request for a gift....which doesn't quite make sense except in my head.

If X is so close to you that you regularly forgive these types of things or if X has outlayed $ in the past that I haven't repayed, I forgive the money as well.

I don't know if there is a fair minimum for these types of things. I think we can all agree that an outlay of $1.00 may be seen as a gift, but then again, at work, we regularly ask for that to be repaid, because there is a soda machine nearby and we like the change!

Its so all contextual. If you want to email me privately and want to share, I would happy to pontificate some more with more particulars.

[cellio]

It depends. The most important rule is to be clear up front.

My broad approach is the same as yours; if someone asks me to pick up such-and-such at the store, I expect that the person will offer me money. Depending on what it is I may say "don't bother", but I don't expect the other person to assume it unless we do that sort of thing back and forth routinely.

However, with social stuff especially, reciprococity plays a role. If someone invites me to use a spare theatre ticket I'll offer to pay for it; if the person refuses, I will do my best to find something to do for that person in the future -- an outing, a meal, whatever. The price tags don't need to match, and with people of differing means they shouldn't match, but the point is the gesture of hospitality, not the price tag.

In general, I try to err on the side of (a) offering compensation and (b) assuming that anything I initiate is a gift. So I'll offer to pay for the theatre ticket but not expect to be paid for it -- that sort of thing. If it's something expensive where I would otherwise be able to resell then I'll be up front about the money; otherwise I'm comfortable letting it be a gift.

Um, this doesn't feel very coherent, but oh well.

[cutieperson]

depends. if i have the money to shell out then i pretty much don't care about getting anything back. if i don't... i make it clear that i'm happy to pick something up, but need to get reimbursed.

[danger-chick.livejournal.com]

I agree with these, and will add these:

If X has moved to a state where she cannot get BJ's fruit and nut mix or whole wheat pasta, then she will consider any boxes that arrive at her house containing these items gifts. On the other hand, if X develops an understanding with Y, where Y sends boxes of BJ's fruit and nut mix and whole wheat pasta so that X is never fruit and nut mixless or whole wheat pastaless, then X will send Y regular checks to cover the expense of food and shipping.

In other favors, magid should come visit me, so that I can repay the favor of letting me stay at her place over new year's.

[ruthling.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's a lot of what I wanted to say.

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

Largely what others have said.

I often ask R to pick up things for me at Trader Joe's, and when he brings me the stuff I always ask how much it was and offer to pay, and he always declines my offer, and I usually just give him the money anyway. Except sometimes (like Sunday) I don't have cash on me, or have only large bills and he has no change, and then we just let it be a favor. Yes, we have a close relationship and I've come to know what he's happy paying for (and he's, no doubt, come to know that I'll offer to pay him back), but I *still* tend to be explicit about whether or not I'm asking for a favor that I'll reimburse for or whether I'm asking for a "gift" and likewise when I'm offering something that I want to be reimburse for.

I don't ask or offer these kinds of favors of others much, but thinking to a couple of real-life examples I think my tendency is to be pretty explicit up front when offering or asking--though not always. And if I'm unsure whether or not someone expects reimbursement (and it's a largish amount) I'll ask for clarification before the favor happens. If it's for a small amount I'll usually offer to pay if it wasn't explicitly offered as a no-pay thing. (e.g. from today--long distance friend is giving some things away (that this is giveaway is explicit), and I express interest in some of the thigs, and in doing so I offer to pay for shipping (since expectations about that were not clear).

[queue.livejournal.com]

What about if you decide you don't need to be reimbursed, but X wants to reimburse you anyway? You might feel bad if you reimburse X, since maybe you had thought of it as a gift or a favor, whereas X might rather just pay you instead of feeling indebted to you, possibly feeling like a favor is owed to you in return (even though you wouldn't necessarily expect that).

[magid.livejournal.com]

In the first situation, I would also expect to be repaid.

In the chicken soup scenario, I wouldn't at all, because making chicken soup is not reimbursable, somehow. I mean, there's ingredients, and there's time, and I wouldn't have any clue for either or both, really. (Unless you mean buying chicken soup? Obviously, different defaults... But then, yeah, it's helping a sick person get well, which somehow is a different category for me. (No asking for Maseratis to get over a cold! :-)).

It does depend on my relationship with the person, definitely. But small stuff is just that, and not worth going back and forth on.

There aren't particular particulars in this case, just a number of things coming together in my head at once.

[magid.livejournal.com]

You're making me want to get a BJ's membership :-).

Thanks for the invitation! I think I'm a much more challenging guest than you are, actually, with the kosher food stuff. Plus a cat allergy :-(.

[magid.livejournal.com]

That's much more coherent than I managed, though.

The only thing I'd mention in the "offer to pay but not expect to be paid" part is unless the favor is explicitly the organizing of getting the tickets, rather than something more ambiguous.

[magid.livejournal.com]

I think I need to learn how to be clearer up front when it's a no-pay situation. Part of it is that I hadn't been paying attention that it might be an issue at all, and part of it is the sometimes-awkward "wanna come do X with me, but it's just friends, I'm not trying to make this more than that."

[magid.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's where it gets tricky, when there are such differing expectations, and they're not discussed in advance. But it's sometimes hard to bring it up. Or at leat, I don't necessarily think to bring it up. Perhaps I need to change that, or at least work on identifying potentially mismatched expectations situations better.

[magid.livejournal.com]

So it's about whether you have cash available, not about relationship balances and suchlike. Neat.

[cellio]

Oh, definitely -- "let's all go to see Cirque du Soleyl; I can pick up tickets" is very different from "I have a spare ticket to the ballet; would you care to join me?".

[cutieperson]

pretty much. if it was bigger things i would ask, but... i don't know, i like to think things will balance out in the end and that friends will take care of each other in whatever ways they can.

note that up until very recently i was much better at giving than receiving gifts.

[(Anonymous)]

Sometimes even when it's clear it's somehow not clear.

-A friend asked me to pick up challot for her, for a meal she was attending that I was not. She never repaid me. She probably forgot, and I probably could have asked for the repayment, but I never did. I was picking up the challot because logistics allowed me to run the errand for her quite easily, while she is much more "of means" than I am.

-Ten of us were chipping in for a ten-dollar present. I organized this and shelled out the ten bucks. Maybe half the folks paid me back. To them, either they forgot, or it was only a dollar, but to me, it added up, and was the principle of the thing.

-On more than one occasion, a friend agrees to share the cost of a trip in my car with me, and then later decides autonomously how much to chip in, rather than discussing it with me.

Here's a recent one about which I was unsure: I was traveling and gave someone else a ride home. I would have been making the trip anyway. I wasn't sure what I would have done had my rider offered to chip in, as I was making the trip home anyway. But then my rider, for whom I had just done a favor, and who is gainfully employed and a homeowner while making the trip was for me quite expensive, didn't even offer, and I also realized that because my rider lives so far across the river from me, I had not only gotten home an hour later than I otherwise would have but also probably used an additional gallon of expensive gasoline. Incidentally, my rider approached me and asked for the ride. What would have been appropriate?

I wish I were of means enough not to care at all.

I always end up feeling petty.

Anyway, I think one good thing to keep in mind is when one "favor" can be counted against the "balance" and when it cannot. If there is an arrangement of taking each other out to dinner, then, sure, "you got it last time, I think it's my turn." But if your friend gets you something you did not request and so it's a gift, then some time later asks you to pick up something at the store for which you rightfully expect to be reimbursed, your friend not repaying you for the item because, "after all, I did get you that gift," is not fair. The former is apples and apples, the latter apples and oranges, unrelated situations. And the former is an acknowledged situation, while the latter is not decided between the two.

Thank you for bringing up these questions. They are complicated questions because the situations tend to be complicated.

[magid.livejournal.com]

I've had something analogous to the challah example; I think it's harder to get repaid for Shabbat stuff after Shabbat's over, somehow. I don't know why this should be, though. And I find it hard to ask, too. OTOH, the person I'm most likely to get things for tends to do things for me as well, so in the long run if she forgets to pay me back, it's easier for me to deal with; there's a lot more context there, and in the long run it works out.

In the second situation, no matter the dollar amount, organizing something like that always seems to end up being like herding cats... I've tried to avoid the situation, or get people to give me the money up front before buying ("I don't have everyone's share, so I can't buy it yet.") especially if I can't really afford it myself. Or send lots of emails to everyone... Still, it sucks to have to hound people, and a lot of the time I'll end up absorbing the cost rather than do that.

Long-distance rides: I once gave rides to a couple of people going home for vacation. Not one of them offered me anything, though I knew that if they hadn't gotten the ride they would've had no problem paying for transportation. They didn't even make sure to offer interesting conversation during the trip; it really annoyed me, especially since I'd gone out of my way to drop them off somewhere convenient for them.

And I know I keep trying to tell myself I shouldn't be so petty, noticing imbalances (even knowing that sometimes I'm not good about appreciating what the other has done for me, remembering that the balance is not always how I think it is, especially in more emotional moments when words like "always" and "never" tend to come out), but it's hard to change.

Definitely about apples and oranges there, too.

[magid.livejournal.com]

Oops; the comment below was supposed to be in reply to your comment....

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

FYI, in case you're looking for real-life examples of how some other people handle specific situations, if you ask me (specifically or as part of a "anyone want to come") to a theater thing you have a ticket for and don't mention cost I may assume you're not expecting reimbursement, but I'll offer anyway (and if you decline my offer I'll be fine with being "treated"). Sometimes I might want to go but don't have the money to offer, in which case, even if I think you aren't expecting reimbursement, I'd say "sounds like fun, how much is it?" or "sounds like fun, but I just don't have the money right now." Basically I don't have hangups about just saying that. And both of those responses give you the option of clarifying whether or not you expected reimbursement.

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

And in case it wasn't clear from context--in the case where I'm concerned about cost, I ask that before showing up for the outing. In the first case where I'm not so concerned about cost I might wait until show time to make the reimbursement offer.

[magid.livejournal.com]

Thanks, that's definitely clear, and it's good to know that at least one person has tended to have the same defaults about the tickets that I have.

[(Anonymous)]

Oy, I'm experiencing something like that right now. I'm in a situation where a gift of paying for something has been offered to me, but the beans were spilled not by the person who was offering, for the offering person was actually holding the offer in reserve in case it was needed. The beans-spiller, however, is misguided, and doesn't realize it is a favor that would be done as a last resort, and is insisting I accept the gift graciously.

I, however, am uncomfortable doing so, because of indebtedness as mentioned, because those offering don't have much money and they work really hard, and because of possible "balance sheet" issues that could come up in a twisted, ugly way even years from now if relationship dysfunction rears its head, even though I am profoundly overwhelmed by the generosity and love that is behind the offer.

Also, the paying on my behalf for the service may not be done smoothly, but rather I might be paying and then be reimbursed, which makes it feel less like a gift and more like, well, a repayment, like a payment to me for taking part. It is an awkward situation, especially if the non-shomer Shabbes folks want to handle transactions on Shabbes.

Again, I wish I were just of means and could do this myself and not make an issue out of it.

I'm also afraid that the offering folks may think that my hesitation might be only for monetary reasons and not fully understand the health reasons and situational reasons involved in my hesitation. They may know those intellectually, but actions speak louder than words, so they might not really get it, especially as my health and situational problems are not visible to them.

But, it would be silly not to take part only to avoid that misunderstanding and to appear consistent to them about my health and situational limitations, wouldn't it?

Again, I'm rambling. This situation is this weekend, and should have been decided long ago already. I'm very anxious, and the above post was SO on target. Indebtedness, even only a feeling of such by the "debtor," or, especially, a later determination of such by the "creditor," really sucks.